Author Archives: geoffsnook77

Unknown's avatar

Petyon Manning Syndrome

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For the first time in the Colts last 227 games (you do the math-seriously, I”m not going to), Peyton Manning will not be playing the quarterback position. Perhaps even more amazing is Buccaneer defensive back Ronde Barber’s streak now takes center stage. Seeing as Ronde is actually in there tackling people while Peyton rarely gets touched, I’m more impressed with the former. He just happens to be a Buccaneer….
Peyton’s streak has been a blessing. But one would wonder if at some points it has also been a curse? Some wonder if this could spell the end of this Roman Empire-esque run for the Colts. But in this case, the problem is not Goths, immorality, infrastructure, or anything like that. It appears that if there is a collapse-and this is only a possibility-that one failure will stand out above the rest: failure to groom a successor for Manning.
In the article I linked to above, one aspect of a good employee/teammate is:

 

  ….a man’s true value to his employer is revealed by what’s accomplished when he’s not around. Well folks, it’s time to finally put that premise to the test.
On Sunday, we’ll finally see what happens when Peyton Manning doesn’t step onto the field. We’ll see what happens when a team only keeps 2 quarterbacks on the roster for years and doesn’t develop any new talent. But not all teams with Iron Man quarterbacks have fallen prey to the failure to address the need for new leadership. Green Bay drafted a quarterback you may have heard of named Aaron Rogers (fresh off a Super Bowl win-even though the Pack had the same record as the Bucs last year) and gave him time to develop before Brett Favre “diva-ed” his way out of there.
Peyton Manning Syndrome happens in churches all the time. Someone is talented at preaching, teaching, leading a small group bible study, playing music, evangelizing, etc….For years that person just does what he/she does best. But eventually that person will die, go to college, move away, or change churches. 
As pastors and church members, I think we always need to think a few years out. Who can I train to do what I do so that we’ll presently be multiplying ministry (as opposed to simply maintaining) as well as protecting ourselves for unseen transitions? Now I’m not referring to programs. Some programs need to die. I’m talking about people ministering the gospel to each other in in its various forms.
1 Peter 4:10 As each has received a gift, use it to serve one another, as good stewards of God’s varied grace: 11 whoever speaks, as one who speaks oracles of God; whoever serves, as one who serves by the strength that God supplies- in order that in everything God may be glorified through Jesus Christ. To him belong glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Who else has gifts similar to yours? Can be they be trained to assist or eventually replace you to pursue more personal ministry?

A pastor and member’s true “worth” (I’m not arguing some folks are essentially more important) to the church is probably seen more in their temporary absence (as they step aside and share leadership) than in their conspicuous presence. The church needs the gifts of its members. But in some way, the less dependent a church is on ONE person here and there-unless that person is the God/Man Jesus-the healthier and prosperous that church is and will be. 

Now most of this falls on the church leadership to think more like the Green Bay Packers than the Indianapolis Colts: to always be thinking 2-3 years down the road. Nevertheless, members can serve in the same way by trying to raise up replacements or assistants which will then open up new opportunities for them or for new-comers.

Unknown's avatar

Room at the table for differing conversions

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I heard a challenging sermon called “Paul’s Life and Ours” last week on a very familiar passage. In Galatians chapter 1, Paul defends his gospel as coming from Jesus himself.
“15 But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, 16 was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone; 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus. 18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and remained with him fifteen days.”
Martin Ban from Christ Church Santa Fe called attention to the fact that there was a difference in the way some of the Galatians received the gospel (Jesus via preached word we assume) and the way Paul received the gospel (via personal encounter with Jesus). Part of their unwillingness to listen to Paul, perhaps came from this difference. Paul was a suspect since he didn’t receive the gospel the way they had (obviously some of them probably hadn’t at all). 
The Galatians needed to feel concern with the content of the gospel way before they needed to be concerned and question Paul’s experience. His application was that we need to be more tolerant in the experiential component or “the where,” (the “where” also includes the historical gospel story) when the content of the gospel is believed. 
Citing examples of Anne Lamott and his own experience of being a Christian while growing up Catholic, he challenged his congregation to not greet everyone who came to faith in a different way with a hermeneutic of suspicion. In other words, just because someone’s faith journey looks different than yours, that does not make it illegitimate. And you shouldn’t assume it is.
I came out of college ministry that tended to question the legitimacy of one’s salvation if he or she couldn’t produce an adequate time, date, or experience of conversion. I still struggle with being suspicious over crazy faith journey’s like the murderous “Son of Sam who has refused parole though I blame that on own tendency toward skepticism.
But the more I live, and the more I minister, the way Jesus “meets” people and brings them from death to life seems to be vary quite a bit. There is no cookie cutter experience.
Sometimes a person person might be involved in a bible study for a long period of time and eventually the light bulb clicks on and they “get the gospel.” More and more people today find themselves converted to the church before they are truly converted to Christ. After they see Christ’s community, and experience the gospel shared and lived out in community, they may embrace it without a conscious experience. This can happen in youth groups as well.
We pray that Connar never knows a time where he doesn’t trust Jesus as His Lord and Savior. Of course he will need to profess faith one day and say, “Yep, this Jesus, I rest in Him alone.” But I would be completely happy if he can’t remember a time when he didn’t know Jesus. He will have only Jesus to rest in, and not an experience.
And some kids do profess faith at a young age. I don’t think we should immediately be skeptical and withhold Communion or Baptism (if they haven’t received that sign) because we’re suspect of their experience. Provided they can profess a child like faith to the elders, I’m not sure that we should require much past that.
And I also pray for those consciously running from Christ either because of their morality or immorality, that they will turn to Jesus, rest in Him, and experience and display their faith. Their story and experience will look quite different than mine. And there’s plenty of room for all of us in the local church.
We should not expect the cookie cutter experience today because we don’t see that in scripture. Timothy came to faith as the gospel was passed down through his family (II Tim 1). Jesus’ disciples were just told to follow him and they did. Others came to faith by means of traveling Evangelists like Paul and Barnabas (Acts 13:48), and some who never personally knew them (Colossians). The thief on the cross came to faith a bit of an unusual way (Luke 23:43) you could say.
The emphasis in scripture seems to be less on conversion experience, but instead on “knowing Christ,” and demonstrating faith NOW as opposed to proving you had faith THEN. 

Anyhow, I felt convicted of my suspicions. Provided the content of the gospel is there, and the person is walking with Jesus, but of course struggling like the rest of us, make sure you leave room at the table of fellowship.

Unknown's avatar

Why we have kids sing

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Few things are more entertaining than watching little one’s play sports. But I enjoy few things more than seeing little one’s sing about Jesus, particularly when it is my own little one we’re talking about. Yet should we have kids up front to entertain the congregation because they are getting ready to hear a long sermon? Or could there be another reason for kids to be up front?

While a church service isn’t intended to entertain folks (we’ll miss Jesus, if we aim for entertainment), it nevertheless is still the highest joy that I and many other experience in the week. While its not entertainment, I’m often full of joy when I leave on Sundays. And on one particular Sunday when we had the benefit of being blessed by our children singing, I rode “cloud 9” the whole day.

Here are some reasons why I was so blessed and look forward to more of these opportunities in the future.

1.) Jesus said, “Let the children come to me (Matt 19:14).” You don’t HAVE to have kids up front singing a song during the tithe, but it is a way for us to let them come to Him and lead us in worship. We are legitimating them as members of the covenant community.

2.) Little children possess a joy that adults sometimes lose because of the cares of this word. Is it naievete? I don’t think so. As adults we are to be responsible, but we often times forget to relax and trust Jesus. Little kids remind us to do the latter, even if they are unaware of some of the responsibilities like working and paying bills. Seeing their joy can restore our joy.

3.) Next generation. You don’t HAVE to have little kids up front singing, but having them reinforces that our God is a God to us and our children. He is faithful to us as we attempt to pass on the truth of the Lord to the next generation. Some of the kids up there do have personal faith and want to profess it. Others will probably some day soon profess faith. We see the faithfulness of God working and don’t need to be afraid of this evil age, as though it somehow can snatch our children out of God’s faithful hands.

4.) Is laughter part of worship? Well we can laugh in sermons, can’t we? Laughing during confession of sins is obviously not apropos, but laughter has a place in redemptive history; it signifies that we are redeemed. So I think it is apropos during corporate worship, which aims retells the gospel story each week. The laughing folk are the redeemed folk.

Psalm 126:2-3 “Our mouths were filled with laughter, our tongues with songs of joy. Then it was said among the nations, “The LORD has done great things for them.” 3 The LORD has done great things for us, and we are filled with joy.”

5.) It gives the children an opportunity to express that they love Jesus. Adults have opportunities obviously through joining the church and professing faith, or by leading or playing music, or by giving testimonies. But I think that we need to hear from kids more often.

6.) Some kids in this video do not like being center of attention. Obviously you can tell my son, in the middle, wearing red, has no problems. When he gets older, we’ll explain to him not to try to draw attention to himself. Yet he was so excited to get up and sing about Jesus, that I didn’t want to put any parameters other than “Don’t fall off the stage!”

But for other children, it took real faith to get up there. Faith in the One whom they were singing about and to. That challenged and encouraged me.

7.) The simple message and joy of Jesus washing our sins away, and how it truly is a “Happy Day,” can mean something more coming from a child than an adult or pastor. Sometimes we need reminders that we entered into a relationship with Jesus because of a child like faith and possessed a great joy because of it. Sometimes it takes children singing freely and unhindered, experiencing that joy while they are expressing it, to lead us back to the joy of God’s salvation.

Luke 18:17 Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.”

If you haven’t seen the video of the kids singing, here it is.

Unknown's avatar

A heart under the hoodie

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One thing I don’t do very well, but realize that I need to do well, is find positive things to say about those with whom you disagree. My least favorite coach in the NFL is Bill “Belicheat” Belichick. Not fan of that joker for a number of reasons.
However, I found out something about this lad which surprised me quite a bit: he seems to have legitimate feelings. He says in reference to the final cuts when teams have to go from 80 down to 53 players:
“It doesn’t make it any easier, but it’s something you have to deal with every year,” Belichick said. “It doesn’t really get any easier. It’s always a grouping of people and you’re affecting their lives and their families and their careers and trying to do what’s best for the team, but that still can be tough. It is tough.”
I have no personal interaction with Coach, so its not that tough to commend his concern for his players. There really is a heart under the “hoodie” (probably the least fashionable coach in the NLF, he simply wears a “hoodie” sweatshirt, and pants of course) as hard as it is to admit.
Yet it becomes much harder when dealing with folks with whom we have actual relationships. How much more with those we struggle fancying? Nevertheless, we will rarely ever be “heard” until we can also find and relay something positive to such folks. Very few people listen to those who can find NOTHING positive about them. I think this is why Republicans and Democrats rarely ever get anywhere with each other.

Since all of us truly are made in the image of God, we can find something positive to say about our enemies, critics, or those folks who we find harder to love than others. As much as I struggle to believe this, it still rings true.

Unknown's avatar

Is Media simply Anti-Tebow because they are Anti-Jesus?

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Tebow is probably one of the more dichotomizing figures in professional sports. For a 2nd and now probably a 3rd string quarterback, no one draws this much attention. Perhaps its because he’s a former Heisman trophy winner, but there have obviously been plenty of Heisman trophy winning quarterbacks who have just fizzled out in the NFL without much noise. Ever heard of Gino Torretta? Is it because he’s such a unique player, with talent but bad form, and amazing ability to keep a play alive?
Or does he receive bad press and find people rooting against him simply because he is an outspoken Christian athlete? One lad believes such is true, and another responds to that complaint. Check it out here. It’s a thoughtful article.
But Tuesday, CBS Sports NFL analyst Randy Cross said that media like me are bashing Tebow simply because he’s openly Christian…..My personal belief is there are people in the media, people in the stands, who are predisposed to see a guy like that fail … just because he’s so public about the way he feels.”
Now I know Randy Cross personally. By personally I mean that I once saw him walking out of Perimeter church one Sunday as I was going in. So this is obviously getting personal. It gets even more personal because before one of Tebow’s bowl games, I was actually interviewed by Rick Montgomery from the Kansas City Star because my blog post related to a story he was working on about Tebow, Christianity, and sports.
Anyhow, I really appreciated Rick Reiley’s article here and actually end up siding more with him than my good friend, or passing acquaintance Randy Cross.
1.) First of all, Cross and all Christians can sometimes be paranoid jump the gun in “seeing” persecution. Sometimes Christians can see “persecution,” meaning that people don’t like them or root for them to succeed because of Jesus. Sometimes people don’t like them or want them to succeed, and it has nothing to do with Jesus. In fact it is because they are just not very likeable, or arrogant, or separatist. Of course Tebow is none of these things, but some folks like to play the “persecution” card when there really is no persecution. I don’t think every anti-Tebow thought is anti-Jesus. In fact many are not.
2.) Journalists are supposed to be unbiased. Any reader of this blog knows that I consider that task impossible. However, the good ones don’t let their bias control or dictate their writing. Reily has a track record of covering religious athletes. You can limit your bias and that’s his point.
I’ve criticized Tiger Woods enough for 10 men. He’s Buddhist. Am I anti-Buddhist?

Whose god Tim Tebow worships has zero to do with my criticism of him. It’s his business. Like I care. Tebow is about the 1,297th-most outwardly Christian athlete I’ve covered. He doesn’t stick his god down my throat. Doesn’t genuflect after touchdowns. 

And even if he did, it wouldn’t affect what I write about him. I’ve covered openly devout athletes for 33 years. Lord knows I’m used to it. 
3.) Look at the kind words Reiley has to say about Tebow.
Doesn’t answer every question with, “Well, first, let me thank my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ and, yes, I think I did pull my groin in the third quarter.”
Yes Christian athletes can say, “Our team played well or it didn’t play well,” just like you can say, “Thank you,” to a job well done at work.
4.) Reiley correctly blasts my good buddy Randy Cross for his duplicity.
In that case, what does that make Cross after he tweeted this about former New York Giants wide receiver and outwardly Christian David Tyree, after Tyree publicly raged against gay marriage:

Same sex marriage will create “anarchy”? Cross tweeted. Did some of the glue on Tyree’s helmet effect (sic) his brain function? Let’s stay in 21st century okay?
Tim Tebow has the same same-sex views on gay marriage as David Tyree.
5.) Some bad stats.
Look, roughly 85 percent of Americans are Christian. While that doesn’t necessarily mean that 85 percent of media members are Christian, chances are a vast majority are. So, why would all these Christians be so hell-bent on crucifying this kid for his Christianity? It’d be like Al Jazeera ripping Khadafi for being Muslim. 
Not sure where these stats came from. Certainly NOT Barna and his “ship is sinking” percentages he likes to throw our way that cause people to freak out. Obviously for Reily, “Christian” has become an adjective to describe a person who isn’t a Muslim. But even that stat seems high to me…..

6.) Is it possible some in the media probably don’t like Tebow or want him to succeed? Sure. Does it seep through in their journalism? Possibly. Some people don’t like that cat because he is an outspoken Christian. Its not too big a stretch to think that some bias does seep through their “pages.” I just don’t know if Cross is accurate in his complaint about “the media.” Even Tim Tebow bashers like Colin Cowherd like Tebow after having him on his show.

Unknown's avatar

Sadness and faith

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I’ve been getting email updates from my former pastor, but current colleague and friend, about a little boy who had been suffering for a while with cancer and now has gone home to be with the Lord. I hated getting these updates, because it was almost always bad news in regards to his health. It brought on sadness, and would regularly almost bring me to tears. That’s not easy to do unless I’m going through a period of depression and watching a sad movie while separated from family. 
Parents shouldn’t have to bury their kids. They just shouldn’t.
Sometimes life seems to ordered. It really does. For instance, when you by chance happen to run into someone across the country who lives right next door, or when you know that if X didn’t happen, then Y wouldn’t have. Or when you’re trying to make it under the garage door before they made sensors and it lands on your head instead of your neck (that happened to me in elementary school). And you thank God for being in control. There are times when God feels so in control. A number of times. And I give my “approval” (of course he doesn’t need it) or at least thanksgiving-but probably the former is more accurate.
And there are other times, like this, when God’s goodness and His power don’t seem to square with what’s happening in the world. Those times become harder when its you, or your church family, and now it is you who find yourself now in the middle of a “Job-ean” storm. 
This is not a treatise on how or even why you should trust God in the midst of such uncertainty. This is simply my reflection, and what I have to do, so that I don’t fall into Eeyore mode.
How do we know that God is out there or that He cares in the midst of this? Well, there are of course evidences of a zillion little things happening which indicate He is with us. But of course there are “indicators” to the contrary (though of course it does fit into the overall bible story of Creation-Fall-Redemption-Consummation) like children dying, and babies being born with heart defects to parents who love Him dearly.
Well, there are two options as I see it. Either the biblical view of God as both Sovereign and Good is true, or it is not. I either embrace the world as God sees it, or I can embrace some of the “indicators” to the contrary. Two options. Either way, the choice involves a faith commitment; it is not only about evidence or “indicators,” as helpful as they have been for me.
I may not get a vote, but as a child of God, I have a voice. Sometimes that voice is to cry out, “Why Lord?” But I’m crying out to Someone. Someone who cares. Some who has experienced premature death. Someone who will return one day. That sounds crazy. But it is really no less crazy than being angry at no one, or even having a legitimate reason to be angry. That’s where atheism begins to NOT make sense to me.

My faith commitment isn’t as “crazy” as Soren Kierkegaard may have put it. There are indicators. But indicators make no sense without first trusting in the One who indicates His presence in His world. 

I’m sad for this family and this loss. I pray that they can see a Savior who cried when His friend died (John 11). I pray that they can also see a Savior who welcomes His child home with loving arms. Both are true and real in this hard to understand, fallen but redeemable world. 

Unknown's avatar

Parenting class

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I’m pretty excited about our new parenting class we’re offering at Redeemer. Finding the right material can be hard sometimes when there are several different options from which to choose. But after re-examining and skimming (I’d already read and enjoyed it before) Gospel Centered Family by Tim Chester and Ed Moll, and getting confirmation from a trusted leader, I knew we had made the right decision. Then, the next day, Gospel Centered Family goes on sale for 60% off! I really knew we had made the right decision.  You can also get it from the Good Book Company (one of my new favorite publishers) for the same price.
This book practically challenges parents to foster a gospel centered environment in the home, but it also has a section directing parents to consider their missional responsibility as well. Some books neglect that part of it, but I was glad to see Chester and Moll wed the inward and outward component of family ministry in their short book. Again, it is very short, with short chapters and scripture passages, making it to read with a friend or a group.
But another reason I’m excited about the class has nothing to do with the content-though the content from day one will reinforce this timely truth. We’re running the parent class alongside our existing Sunday School classes. Not only is this designed to give folks another incentive to take advantage of this 36 week discipleship tool (Sunday School), but it helps us reinforce that parents have the primary responsibility in discipling their children.
Sunday School, nursery program (we start teaching at 2!), children’s church, youth group, bible clubs, assist parents; they don’t replace them. I think we’re teaching that not just with our words, but in our structure. Am I being anal? Neurotic? Possibly, but sometimes well meaning churches may have a particular vision, but their structures may actually preclude that vision from being accomplished. 
 
These programs are of valuable assistance, and we’ve been praying for increased participation. I guess I just don’t understand folks who don’t want any assistance in discipling their children: Amy and I teach Connar everyday formally and informally, but we need the help of Sunday School teachers and will relish the help one day from a youth group.

At the same time, parents have the privilege, responsibility, command, and often difficulty (that’s whey do this stuff in community-we need it) of teaching their kids the gospel and its application to all of life. So running a parenting class alongside the children’s Sunday School class retierates that the church equips parents to be the primary though not single or solitary, disciplers of their children.

Once a week Sunday School is great, particularly for 36 weeks out of the year. We see a difference in those kids who’ve gone through the studies for years and those who haven’t. But I would bet that much of that difference is the result of godly parents who recognize, welcome, and relish the assistance, yet have also made family discipleship a 24-7 lifestyle instead of a program or a bible study.

Most folks probably fall into the “outsourcing” mode when it comes to discipling their children and the assistance has become the totality of their children’s discipleship. We’re hoping to hit that issue head on this Fall. Looking forward to what may happen.

Unknown's avatar

Do you guys baptize adults in this place? Part III: Learning from Puddy’s apathy

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This is the third post on adult baptisms and the dearth of them in some Presbyterian circles. It is ironic, or maybe just apropos, that last night I watched one of the few “spiritually” minded Seinfeld episodes. Elaine eventually realizes that her churl of an on-again-off-again boyfriend David Puddy, is a professing Christian. It took the “Jesus” fish and pre-set Christian radio stations for the sirens to finally sound in her head. 
In all of the humor of the episode, and it is a fine one at that, I found it raised some wonderful concerns and questions about evangelism. Puddy, with his outwardly, culturally Christian indicators like Christians music, memorabilia, utterances of the 10 commandments when it suited him, displayed a quality consistent with many true Christians today. He didn’t care one bit about Elaine’s eternal salvation.
In fact, Elaine calls him on this, and posits this contradiction present within many of us: “If I am going to Hell, which I’m not, but if I am, you should care that I’m going to Hell.” Wow. How true.
While I’m not going to psycho-analyze a fictitious character, I think we can at least see WHY he didn’t care about the salvation of his girlfriend. And from that, how WE can care more about the salvation of our friends and neighbors.
1.) Outward Christian signs don’t necessarily reveal any spiritual depth. The “Jesus” fish, the Christian music, even facebook posting of bible verses (I’m obviously pro-bible verse posting and am often encouraged by such verses; however, we shouldn’t NECESSARILY equate their posting to the Spirit working) are all accepted, and sometimes expected forms and demonstrations of personal faith. Yet it is possible to display such signs, even good signs, without the Spirit really at work changing our hearts. That is one reason we often don’t care: the Spirit isn’t at work in our lives and His fruit has been tossed aside and ignored so that we can focus on external demonstrations.
2.) The outward keeping of the God’s law, which is a good thing (His Law), can also lead us to care less about the salvation of our friends, neighbors, and co-workers. Puddy told Elaine to steal her neighbor’s newspaper. Elaine responded, “But that paper belongs to Mr. Potato guy. Why don’t you steal it?” Puddy quickly retorted,” Sorry, Thou shalt not steal.” Outwardly he didn’t steal, but inwardly he was obviously breaking the heart of the commandment by trying to get Elaine to steal it for him. Sometimes the outward conformity to God’s law, or simple morality can become an enemy of love for others, because we are in actuality, missing the arrow of God’s law: pointing us to Jesus. Hard to love others when we don’t see Jesus love for sinners like us.
3.) No grace, no care. Puddy then explains why it is OK for her, but not for him to steal: “Why does it matter if you steal it; you’re already going to Hell?” Obviously he has no concept of grace. If Puddy does break God’s law, he is hurting His chances of going to Heaven. So at this point, he knows nothing of grace. God has offered a salvation plan, which means following Jesus example. He doesn’t want to depart from that path because He doesn’t want to miss out; the doesn’t want to get zapped. That’s not grace. It’s no wonder he doesn’t care. That’s not really good news: do your best and don’t mess up or you’ll be cut from the team like an injured NFL star. 
On another Seinfeld episode Puddy declares, “I got nothing.” He’s got nothing to share because he hasn’t tasted grace. When we don’t regularly taste grace, that we can’t screw up our salvation, we will care to share. We won’t care less, we’ll care more.
4.) Know grace, care. Finally at the end of the episode, Puddy has his heart broken as the priest delivers him the bad news: because he and Elaine are sleeping together, they are both going to Hell. At one point, this is beautiful. You see someone so confident in his good works realize that his sins have disqualified him for heaven. Unfortunately the priest tells them nothing of the gospel and so Puddy is left with nothing.
If he were a believer he could say, “I do need to repent from this sin of shacking up. And I will. You’re right about that. But no sin disqualifies me from Christ’s one time atoning sacrifice. I’m repenting and resting in Him.”

But because Puddy knows religion and not the gospel he is left hopeless. He didn’t care to share the gospel because he didn’t understand the gospel. He didn’t care about the life of his friend because He didn’t realize what Jesus has done for his people already. In order for our lives to demonstrate a greater concern for those outside Christ, we have to go back and see ourselves in both Elaine and Puddy. We do sin, and sin quite often. And we do many times follow the law, but our hearts have various motivations. 

Yet the offer of the gospel is for the licentious and the religious, for people like you and me. And once we see that no one can say to the true believer, “You’re going to Hell,” that God would be even be acting unjustly to send the believer to Hell because he doesn’t re-punish sin, we will begin to see our apathy evaporate.

Unknown's avatar

Do you guys baptize adults in this place? Part II: Desire

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This is a follow up post on why someone may not have seen as many adult baptisms in a Presbyterian setting as in a Baptistic church. One reason, and I don’t think its the only reason, is that there just might be fewer conversions. 
However, I want to depart from comparing denominations or convictions on baptism. Comparing theological differences, particularly when they deal with gospel truncations can be helpful. And comparing evangelistic strategies can also be helpful as we have much to learn from each other. But comparing the “results” of evangelism, which are ultimately the Lord’s work (Acts 13:48), can lead to either pride or jealousy. So I’ll focus particularly on why we don’t see more conversion than we would like, and not on why we don’t see more conversions than them. 
All Presbyterians-and when I say that I don’t mean folks who necessarily subscribe to the polity or theology of the P.C.A., but who are currently attending/members of such a church-should at least consider why we don’t see more conversions.
Here are a few possibilities. In no ways am I zeroing in on evangelism to the neglect of other ministries of the individual believer and the church; it just happens to be the a pertinent issue when dealing with a dearth of conversions. All of these particular possibilities are couched in lack of desire.
1.) We don’t care that much, so we don’t pray that much. This sounds un-spiritual, and that’s because it is. But it may very well be a good representation of our hearts-mine included. Perhaps we just don’t care as much as we say we do. If we’re not regularly praying for specific people to come to faith, we should probably not be surprised when specific people don’t come to faith. If we don’t have specific people we would like to see come to faith, and plug into the life of the church, then we need to ask God for specific people to come into our lives. God is cool with that: He’s opened some doors for us recently. 
Then open up your eyes and see who’s there. And if you need the faith to believe a specific someone could come to faith, you can ask for that too. I think we all have people we deem “un-reachable.” I guess sometimes you could say our lack of conversions may stem from lack of faith as much as lack of desire. It has for me.
2.) We don’t care that much, so we don’t prioritize any time for such relationships.
Time is precious. We have family. We have work. We have hobbies which help burn off stress or help us spend time with family. You can’t invite your friends to work, but you can invite them to things that are currently in your schedule. Checkers motto, “You gotta eat” rings true. Invite them to things you already do and you’ll find you actually do have the time.
3.) We don’t care that much, so we aren’t inentionally trying to move our non-Christian relationships to the next level of verbally sharing the message of the gospel. This is where I stink. I’m great at building relationships, pretty good at inviting folks to church, but often don’t find myself being as intentional with my questions that till the soil for personal gospel sharing. Praying for desire is still a legitimate prayer in this stage.

4.) We don’t care that much, but we never recognize our apathy. As a result, we don’t repent of it. None of us probably care as much as we think we do. Again, I’m not highlighting evangelism above leading your family, honoring Christ at work, mercy, discipleship, but simply want to raise the point that many of us probably don’t care as much as we think we do. Perhaps that’s one of the main culprits.

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Do you guys baptize adults in this place? (ammended)

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Someone asked me the other day whether or not Presbyterians baptize adults. Surprised at the question, I told him that we do. He responded that he had never seen it in his several years at one P.C.A church. I told him that I’d baptized an adult and his two young daughters one Sunday, assuring him it does happen. But why does it not regularly happen, or at least as often as you might see in a Baptistic church?
1.) One explanation could be that Baptistic churches will re-baptize folks. So if they have been baptized as an infant, the church may require or at least encourage re-receiving the sign of baptism. People can be baptized more than once, sometimes more than twice. In a Presbyterian church, we will not re-baptize. So if someone who was baptized as a child or a teenager, and yet truly comes to a embrace and cherish Christ for the first time as an adult, he or she won’t be re-baptized. Baptistic churches tend to think of baptism as an outward sign of an inward reality, whereas Presbyterians see baptism as sign and seal of the promise. I have no desire to argue the validity of the latter, but simply want to show why we and they do what we and they do. So that may account for some of the lack of adult baptisms in Presbyterian churches.
2.) There is another other explanation; I don’t like it, because it is a bit more condemning. Yet I think it may be more likely the culprit in the dearth of Presbyterian adult baptisms as compared to our Baptistic brothers and sisters. It is possible that Baptistic churches just do a better job at reaching people for Christ than Presbyterian churches. It is possible that they simply “see” more conversions, or at the very least, more professions of faith. That’s probably the reason as much as I hate to admit it.
Now of course some Presbyterian churches do see plenty of adult baptisms. It has not been my experience in PCA churches where I’ve been a member or minister. Yet. I’m not throwing in the towel…..

As far as to why there are discrepancies in new professions of faith, which soon lead to the adult baptism discrepancies, well, that’s for another day. By the way, hope you enjoyed the picture of the 80’s Mormon baptism in the right hand side of the post. Apparently they immerse. Somehow I missed that in all of my front door Mormon conversations. Just for the record, Presbyterians would baptize you if you came to faith out of a Mormon background. Their baptism is not Trinitarian and so we would “legitimately” baptize for the first time.